under conditions

[solpahi]

Remove "under conditions" places throughout the gimste. The places are so rarely needed and are never central to the definition, since a condition can always be added to anything. When a condition needs to be specified, {va'o} can be used.

[adamlopresto]

The "under conditions" places actually serve different roles in different gismu, and removing all of them is probably overreaching broadly. As a very simple example, ckeji2 is central to the meaning of {ckeji}. This needs more analysis of the different roles that "under conditions" places fill in different gismu, and exactly which are superfluous and which are important.

[lagleki]

sarcu3 might be another example

2014-05-28 18:44 GMT+04:00 adamlopresto [email protected]:

The "under conditions" places actually serve different roles in different
gismu, and removing all of them is probably overreaching broadly. As a very
simple example, ckeji2 is central to the meaning of {ckeji}. This needs
more analysis of the different roles that "under conditions" places fill in
different gismu, and exactly which are superfluous and which are important.

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[solpahi]

la xalbo cu cusku di'e

The "under conditions" places actually serve different roles in
different gismu, and removing all of them is probably overreaching
broadly. As a very simple example, ckeji2 is central to the meaning of
{ckeji}. This needs more analysis of the different roles that "under
conditions" places fill in different gismu, and exactly which are
superfluous and which are important.

I'd still like to see some sort of proof that they are different "under
condition" places, i.e. a case where {va'o} (or some other appropriate
tag) is not enough.

{ckeji} has a strange place structure. Let's assume ckeji2 is gone, then:

mi ckeji lo drata tadni va'o ro nu mi sanga fi ri
"I feel shame before the other students whenever I sing in front of
them."

Alternatively, one could say that ckeji2 is not actually an "under
conditions" place, but something else, something more akin to bebna2,
i.e. a ka-abstraction where the ce'u is the ckeji1. Currently {mi ckeji
lo nu ti badna} is possible.

[solpahi]

I checked the corpus, and ckeji2 has always been used in the sense of bebna2, i.e. "x1 is ashamed for doing/being x2". Most those uses are with {nu}, but nowadays it would more commonly be {ka}. For example "mi ckeji lo ka srera"

[durka]

{ckeji} definitely seems more useful that way.